Youth Against Racism & Injustice – Interview with Hon. Linda Burney MP

Youth Leader Nick: Hello, Linda. Thank you for taking time for this interview. And thank you for participating in this Zoom meeting for Youth Against Racism and Injustice project that we’re doing here.

Linda Burney MP: Thank you.

Youth Leader Nick: Before we begin proceedings, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we meet today, the Gadigal and Bidjigal lands of the Eora nations. I would like to pay my respects to the elders past present and future and also pay my respects to all Aboriginal people here today wherever you may come from.

Linda Burney MP: Lovely.

Youth Leader Alex: Hi, I’m Alex. I am a long time volunteer for 2Connect’s anti-racism programs, and I have a question about NAIDOC week, which, as you know, has been postponed from July to November of this year because of COVID 19. And I wanted to ask what the importance is of NAIDOC Week and why we still celebrate it.

Linda Burney MP: Well, I think the theme..thank you Nick. Hello, Alex and I join with Nick in recognising country. I am in Kogarah today. So I am on Gadigal Country which is also part of the Eora Nation…so thank you to 2Connect Youth and Community for having this series. And Alex, to go to your question I mean NAIDOC is over 60 years old in fact the same age as me…thereabouts. And what I’ve noticed Alex with NAIDOC is just how remarkable the change has been from it not being all that recognised a long time ago to now where everyone participates, especially schools, which I think’s really, really important. So schools, local government areas, government departments parliaments, a whole bunch of people actually recognise NAIDOC and recognise it’s time for celebration of Aboriginal culture and heritage and story, as well as a time where we can educate ourselves and come together as a nation. And that’s what NAIDOC really is about. And, and, you know, if you think about the Uluru statement, one of the three tenets of Uluru was the concept of Truth-Telling. And I think NAIDOC is a fantastic opportunity to practice some of that truth telling. And I was kind of a little vaguely aware that NAIDOC had been postponed to November, so I think we’ll all be able to participate. And I understand the theme is Always Was, Always Will Be, and the recognition that First Nations culture is so old. And for me, that is something for all Australians to be proud of and just celebrate.

Youth Leader Alex: Thank you.

Youth Leader Nick: As the sitting MP for Barton, you are the first Aboriginal person to serve in the New South Wales Parliament and the first Aboriginal woman to be a member of the Australian House of Representatives. In what ways do you feel it’s important to have Indigenous voices in government?

Linda Burney MP: Well, I think it’s important to have a diversity of voices in government. It’s not been the case in the past. I mean, there was a time not so long ago, wherein only men were in Parliament. That’s changing. But having a diversity of views means that parliaments better reflect the community and that’s essentially …ah…I think what stands behind the importance of diversity. But I think we are a long way from having the diversity that we need in parliaments right across this country. Most parliaments now have openly gay people. I think there’s a long way to go is that with the recognition of LGBTQI representation.  There are very few parliaments with people with a disability. Most parliaments, except for I think maybe South Australia. Oh no – South Australia does have First Nations people, but not enough. So if a parliament is to truly reflect the people that elect parliaments, they need to be diverse and the fact that it was 2016 for the first Aboriginal woman was elected to the House of Representatives just underscores how important the points that I that I’m making are. And I have to say, Nick, that when I stood for Parliament there were three really motivating factors – female representation, the issue of social justice and First Nations people in the Parliament and they are still the main points of motivation for me.

Youth Leader Kyle: So my name’s Kyle and I’m one of the attendances on the anti-racism projects and here I’m…

Linda Burney MP: Sorry what was your name again?

Youth Leader Kyle: My name’s Kyle and I’ve got some following questions for you. So… in what areas does the Black Lives Matter movement and how does it relate to anti-racism movements also relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander rights?

Linda Burney MP: That’s a really big question, Kyle, and thank you. So obviously the Black Lives Matter movement in Australia really highlighted and focused on the number of Aboriginal people in custody, both juvenile justice as well as the adult prison population. And I don’t need to tell you or the people participating today of just how serious the overrepresentation is of Aboriginal people in the criminal justice system. In fact in some places in Australia it’s almost 100% and I’m talking about north of Australia. But what really impacts on that, Kyle, is the number of Aboriginal children that are in statutory out of home care. So it’s not just people that are locked up, it’s the kids that have been removed for whatever reasons from their family, not living in community and family. And we know the outcomes…as I’m sure you know, some people…the outcomes for those kids is not terrific.

So the Black Lives Matter movement really focus in Australia, really brought into focus, the  over-representation, but it also brought into focus the number of Aboriginal people that have died in custody since the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody, which probably happened before you were born, it finished. It ran from about 87′ 88′ through to 91′ and that examined the death of over, I think it was like something like 300 and something Aboriginal deaths in custody – no criminal charges against police at all.

In fact, that’s why the recent decision by one of the Northern Territory courts to try that guy that killed that shot the young man from Yuendumu is so historic. It is the first time, believe it or not, that someone’s going to be able to be brought to a criminal trial, murder trial actually for his actions. And that’s that happened at the height of Black Lives Matter whether that had an influence or not, it made people think about these issues. And the final point that you’ve made is, how does that relate to racism? I think that’s pretty obvious is that it really highlighted the pretty dreadful history that’s existed in this country and the need to tell the truth, but also some of the structural racism that clearly exists. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be so many people locked up. So that I don’t know if that answers your question fully, but that that’s my response to your question, Kyle.

Youth Leader Phoebe: My name is Phoebe, and I’ve recently gotten involved in 2Connect so I’m relatively new to this advocacy for anti-discrimination.

Linda Burney MP: Good on you.

Youth Leader Phoebe: Thank you. So I’ve read a bit on your history, and I see that you’ve been involved in Aboriginal rights movements and campaigning on indigenous issues for a long while. How far would you say that Australian society has progressed in terms of its treatment of Aboriginal people and from your observations and perspectives, how has non-Indigenous people’s perceptions, sentiment and understanding of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people changed?

Linda Burney MP: I think that things have changed dramatically and as you pointed out…my history goes back a long way. So I have had the opportunity over many generations, over many decades to observe and be part of that change. I’m not saying things are great now because they’re still not but there are a hell of a lot better than they used to be…I very much think that there is a better knowledge base than ever before in the general population and about Aboriginal issues and history. I think it’s still a long way to go, but I can tell you from experience it’s much better than it used to be. Don’t get me wrong, I think there is still shocking racism in Australia and you only, you see that bubble up with things like Adam Goodes and so forth, which I’m sure you’re all familiar with. So there is still enormous ignorance and there is still deep seated racism, both overt and structural, but you very rarely go to a school these days without the school flying the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flag …you very rarely go to school to a speech night or an assembly where there isn’t an acknowledgment of country and those things might seem symbolic, but they’re really important.

And I think that with the debates that happen around whether the 26th of January is appropriate, whether singing the national anthem at State of Origin, which is tomorrow night, is okay. Those debates didn’t happen before and I feel like that sort of the education that you’ve probably come through and the curriculum that you all have experienced.

I would hope explores indigenous issues of First Nations histories more than it ever has done in the past. And you go back 15 or 20 years and there was no discussion in the media about Indigenous issues, which is not the case now. And it is not hard to get educated these days for yourself. There are Indigenous playwrights…The person that won the Booker Prize this year was First Nations woman, the First Nations woman that took out both The Packers Prize and the Archibald were First Nations people.

And those things are really important in terms of changing the views of our people. So I think there’s been enormous change. There’s a long way to go. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a bloody long way to go, but it’s better than it used to be.

Youth Leader Phoebe: Thank you for your insightful answer.

Youth Leader Nick: I had a question that you actually somewhat drew upon earlier when you were talking about how there’s a debate around the symbols concerning Australia. And it does seem to me that a lot of Australians are somewhat uncomfortable with the past of Australia’s history being built on a foundation of imperialism and colonialism. What are your personal thoughts of Australia Day? Should the date be changed or left the same?

Linda Burney MP: No, it should be changed! I’m on public record for many years for a change of date and have a particular view about where it should be changed to. But I, I just think that the celebration of Australia’s national day should not commemorate the first fleet arriving in Australia because that was a pretty disastrous thing for my people, that’s for sure. But I’m also very pragmatic and realistic, Nick, and that is that I don’t see the date changing any time soon. I believe the date should change for all the reasons that many people do. I don’t think it’s a unifying day. I think it’s a day that represents some extremely difficult things for the original owners. But I’m pragmatic to enough to understand that there probably isn’t an appetite politically for a date change. And remembering that Australia Day has not always been the 26th January. It has changed a number of times in the last 230 years. But I’m pragmatic enough to understand that it’s probably not going to change anytime soon. And so what I encourage people to do on the 26th of January is spend part of the day in deep, contemplation about what this really means to First Nations people and what it represents and to try and as part of your Australia Day activities, not just to have a barbecue and get drunk is to actually go to an Aboriginal cleansing ceremony or depending on what city you come from, there will be an activity somewhere in Sydney. There’s the Yabun festival, which is a fantastic event to go to. In Victoria Park it’s usually very hot. So you better take lots of water and sunscreen, but it’s… a way of showing respect. I normally go for about an hour or 2 hours and it’s something you can build into your 26th of January apart from a permanent public holiday. I wanted to ask so many Australian people remain quite ignorant on events in Aboriginal history as well as modern day Indigenous marginalisation.

Youth Leader Alex: So, what books or films or educational material do you recommend for people to gain insight into these issues?

Linda Burney MP: The book that I recommend above everything else is called Dark Emu by Bruce Pascoe. It is revolutionary and easy to read. It’s not a very long book, but it really turns on its head, the notion that Aboriginal people were hunters and gatherers and that was about it. So I recommend that.

I mean, there’s just whatever you can get your hands on really. There’s some fantastic Aboriginal comedy on ABC and SBS and The Yield has just come out. That’s the one from The Booker prize…I have tried to read it but I found it very difficult. But you know, there’s just so many poets and so many hip hop artists which are fantastic. So you know, I don’t need to tell you what to read, and what to watch. You use your own networks and your own ideas.

Youth Leader Alex: All right. Thank you.

Youth Leader Neekita: Hello, Linda. My name is Neekita. So here is my question. We are now in what it looks to be long recession affecting all Australians. So what impact do you think will it be on vulnerable and Indigenous Australians and communities?

Linda Burney MP: I think it will be…I mean, a recession is difficult for everybody, but particularly for vulnerable people, which includes a lot of First Nations communities. And , Neekita, I think the issue around training and employment is probably where I’d focus my comments in relation to this. And of course, for people like yourself with your age group, which includes a lot of Aboriginal kids as well. It’s the idea of having to pay off this debt  but you probably don’t  feel that responsible for and that’s going to go on for a long time. But who knows what it will mean, will mean the cutting of programs right across the board and it will mean that government will have to trim its sails for many, many, many budgets. And that usually affects Indigenous people and vulnerable people. But I do think that this recession is also going to be incredibly difficult for business and it will mean some very hard decisions around tax… stuff that I won’t go on about. But for vulnerable people, it’ll be difficult because of the employment and training aspects.

Youth Leader Neekita: Thank you, Linda.

Youth Leader Phoebe: Lastly, wrapping up to tap into your wealth of experience on this campaign. You’ve campaigned for a long time against racism and social injustices towards ethnic minorities, do you have any advice to us as youth leaders and as individuals on how to effectively campaign against racism?

Linda Burney MP: Well, being a part of this network’s a pretty good start. So you have made a conscious decision to do something. And I think that that that empowers you. And I feel like for young people and, I know, I remember myself at your age thinking there are such big problems in the world and one person can’t make a difference. Well, I’m here to say that one person can make a difference and always remember that because you know, you can have big sweeping changes and lots of fantastic legislation in the parliament. That’s all really good. But the humble acts of individuals is put together, brings about change. And don’t think that you can’t interface with the political process as an individual. You all have a right to cast a vote in Australia. In fact, you have to cast a vote in Australia because it’s the law. That’s one of the reasons I really like the compulsory voting system. And don’t ever underestimate the importance of democracy. And your say in democracy and I don’t just mean federally, I mean state and local governments as well. So please take that opportunity make sure you are as informed as you possibly can be. And I think that’s the most powerful thing is to be informed  and to participate in the way that you have today. I mean, you know, it’s just the very individual attitudes that you’ll take forward into your family and eventually your own family. If you decide to have one. And progress is slow. Very little changes overnight, although the sense of big changes overnight because of COVID. And let’s hope that we can hold on to some of those changes. Not quite sure that we will.  So just be proud of what you’re doing. Remember that activism is about individuals making up a whole.

Youth Leader Phoebe: Thank you very much. So that was our last question we had as a group. On behalf of the 2Connect Youth leaders we thank you for your time in answering these questions.

Linda Burney MP: Well, thank you! All the best. See you!